X-only Markets

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X-only Markets

Post by Rhordain on Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:52 pm

Not sure where else to put this. I was looking at Duotrope a few minutes ago and noticed some new anthology postings for horror. I checked them out, and one is looking for zombie stories, the caveat being that you have to be a woman to get published. Also, the blurb is something to the effect of "Show the boys how it's done!"

Does this strike anyone else as a bit...off? I mean, I have no problem at all with women writers. We've got quite a few in our ranks here. I just don't understand this practice, or whatever you'd call it. Too, I noticed a market a few weeks back that only accepted Asian writers, and I'm certain others are out there.

Initially, I had more to say about it, but I guess it boils down to the fact that I'm sad these types of exclusionary markets exist. I know it's not a new thing, but still. People should be able to get published anywhere, dependent only upon skill and market "appropriateness."

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Tall Tyrion on Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:16 pm

Well, it's the world we live in. I do understand the desire to give people that might have been discriminated against in the past a leg up, but it's a double edged sword.

As long as these markets exist, they are venerable to the charge that these stories are "pretty good for a woman" or whatever. It's unfair, because I think the horror and sci markets have a lot more talented women writers than men right now. I see it in our slush pile all the time. There's some scary ladies out there (meant as a big complement).

If women and minority writers sent out their stories to compete on a level playing field, would they be discriminated against? Sure in some instances, but not that much, IMO. And it would make breaking into the big time much sweeter in the long run to know that you did not have to get any special favors to attain that success.

That's my 2c anyways.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Rhordain on Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:43 pm

Tall Tyrion wrote:Well, it's the world we live in.

That's what bothers me the most.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Mercedes on Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:10 pm

I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Do I wish everybody was chosen because of talent instead of race/gender/whatever? Certainly. But parameters are all right. A horror market is already exclusionary simply because it's a horror market. What about that great adventure story that I wrote? It's excluded automatically. There are markets that only publish Australians, only publish young people, or only publish people who have special needs or mental illness. I don't see anything wrong with that. There's no shame in being published in something that has strict parameters. I write flash, so a flash-only market is perfect for me. Does that mean they're hating on non-flash writers? No.

Sure, some of the women-only markets sound a bit snarky. I think it's backlash against a mostly male-dominated literary world. This is a classic case of "If you can't join them, beat them." If you won't let me into your invite-only anthology, then I'll create my own. There's an interesting thread on Shocklines about the fact that most men don't invite many women to their anthologies for various reasons. If I publish a piece in an anthology titled "Women of Horror", then I'm going to be happy to be in that anthology. And I'll tell you straight up that I'm going to resent anybody that thinks that I'm somehow less for being in that antho. Special favors? Really? I would have earned it fair and square. I still would have beat out the competition in order to earn a place. Don't become discriminatory in your efforts to not be discriminatory. It happens all of the time.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by kurtnewton on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:29 pm

Mercedes wrote:I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Do I wish everybody was chosen because of talent instead of race/gender/whatever? Certainly. But parameters are all right. A horror market is already exclusionary simply because it's a horror market. What about that great adventure story that I wrote? It's excluded automatically. There are markets that only publish Australians, only publish young people, or only publish people who have special needs or mental illness. I don't see anything wrong with that. There's no shame in being published in something that has strict parameters. I write flash, so a flash-only market is perfect for me. Does that mean they're hating on non-flash writers? No.

Mercedes, your comparison here is apples and oranges. Horror markets, Australian markets, young, special need, flash-only markets might be niche markets but they're not exclusionary to gender. They are equal-opportunity markets. Anyone can submit to them if they choose to write something that fits their guidelines. They don't discriminate. Woman-only markets do.

Mercedes wrote:Sure, some of the women-only markets sound a bit snarky. I think it's backlash against a mostly male-dominated literary world.

This might have been true years ago, but not now. The preeminent editor in genre fiction is Ellen Datlow. Literary agents and senior editors of major publishing houses are women. The publishing houses are not stupid. They know the vast majority of readers are women (romance) and young girls (young adult).

Horror and Science Fiction were probably the last bastions of prejudice against women. But even those two playing fields are quickly leveling out.

Mercedes wrote:There's an interesting thread on Shocklines about the fact that most men don't invite many women to their anthologies for various reasons.

Shocklines? C'mon, we're talking Shocklines here. Right, Ken? There is no "fact that most men don't invite many women to their anthologies." And those men who do are 1) doing themselves a disservice by undercutting their potential sales, 2) doing the genre a disservice by not allowing differing viewpoints to be presented, and 3) are probably socially inept and find it easier to work with "members of their own kind." Those men will quickly becoming fossils...as will their publications.

Mercedes wrote:If I publish a piece in an anthology titled "Women of Horror", then I'm going to be happy to be in that anthology. And I'll tell you straight up that I'm going to resent anybody that thinks that I'm somehow less for being in that antho. Special favors? Really? I would have earned it fair and square. I still would have beat out the competition in order to earn a place. Don't become discriminatory in your efforts to not be discriminatory. It happens all of the time.

But you wouldn't have earned it fair and square; you would only be competing against half the potential competitors.

As long as we continue to put up with this nonsense, the myth of the big bad male keeping us down will continue to be perpetuated. It's time to give it a rest.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Rhordain on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:41 pm

Of course, genre-specific markets are exclusionary, and that's what I was referring to when I meant market "appropriateness." Rejecting something that doesn't fit in a given market is different from saying "You're not part of demographic X, so we won't take it."

And I was by no means saying that there's any shame in being published in such a market, or that it's somehow easier to do so. Not at all. I agree, Mercedes, that parameters are good, but I just find gender/race parameters a bit much.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Mercedes on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:47 pm

Shocklines? C'mon, we're talking Shocklines here.


Ha. Yes, true.

In all honesty, yes, it bothers me that markets aren't open to all. I feel that we should be over the gender/race hump by now. But I don't lose sleep over it. If I see a market that I think would be a good fit, I would submit. If it's women only, I'd still submit. I don't feel strongly enough to boycott at this time. But I also feel that I'm beginning to earn my own place in the literary world and that includes a wide variety of markets, and most are completely open.

I'd be interested to hear what other women and/or minorities think. So far the only responses have been from those who would be excluded from most exclusive markets.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Kenwood on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:58 pm

Last thing I want is to see a zombie wielding a bloody tampon!

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Natalie L. Sin on Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:00 pm

For me, it depends on the publisher. Dr. Pus has a women's only anthology, but the submission call was incredibly positive and not a stand against writers with penises. I'm proud to be in the TOC, and look forward to when the books comes out.

Submitting to a gender-specific anthology was a rare exception for me. I hate to be thought of as a *insert gender/race/whatever* writer. I want to be a horror writer. Period. That's just me though, and every writer should promote themselves in a way that feels natural. In the end, it's the stories that matter.

Quick story, before I ramble on too long. I was at a writing convention, and relaxing with my drink next to another woman. A third woman approached and said, "So is this where the wives are sitting?" The woman next to me said "yes" without missing a beat. Me = Shocked

I wasn't mad, but I was a tad mortified. To be instantly classified as a non-writer, based on my incredible rack, chafed. I discretely made my exit, and went to find my friends. We drank heavily, and it was good Wink

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by dgrintalis on Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:39 pm

I've never submitted a piece to a female-only market, but if I stumbled across one and thought I had a story that fit, I probably would. Of course, they'd probably look at my first name and figure I was lying, but...

I'm of two minds about it though. I think it can be a good thing, in one way, to spotlight female horror writers/handicapped writers/Australian writers, etc., but on the other end of it, I'd rather just be known as a horror writer instead of a female horror writer. A female-only anthology/magazine would emphasize the 'female' part.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Tall Tyrion on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:07 pm

I'm throwing a woman only party later on... I'll be there to supervise, of course, but other than that, no men allowed. I think this is an excellent way to allow women the opportunity to socialize in a non-competitive and stress free atmosphere. I'm looking out for ya, ladies...

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Mercedes on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:23 pm

Oh, thank goodness we have you, TT! You always have our backs. Literally.

I'm going to drench myself in Perv Be-Gone. Wink

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Rhordain on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:36 pm

Show him how it's done, Mercedes.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Tall Tyrion on Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:25 pm

Ahhhh and the inspiration for another avatar is born.

If you ladies ever want to stop dreaming... you give me a call.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Mercedes on Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:19 am

Hey, all of you fine men. Here's a zombie anthology that does. not. allow. women.

http://duotrope.com/market_4648.aspx

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Tall Tyrion on Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:28 am

I thought you had to be lying, but it's true.

I'm not a zombie fan. though, so ohhh well... go forth and conquer my brothas!

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Mercedes on Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:38 am

Would I lie to you?

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Tall Tyrion on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:07 am

I'm asking you, sugar?

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by amrose on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:56 am

Natalie L. Sin wrote:For me, it depends on the publisher...but the submission call was incredibly positive and not a stand against writers with penises.

I'm of this stance.

I don't mind women/men/LGBGTQ/race only submission calls as long as the publisher isn't bagging on everyone else.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Natalie L. Sin on Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:32 pm

Mercedes wrote:Hey, all of you fine men. Here's a zombie anthology that does. not. allow. women.

http://duotrope.com/market_4648.aspx

It's raining men!


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Re: X-only Markets

Post by davisac1 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:56 pm

Maurice Broaddus (who you're all following anyway, right? Right?) had relevant words about a similar situation just last week: http://mauricebroaddus.com/?p=1816

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Mercedes on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:15 pm

Oh no, the link isn't working! What was the gist of what he said?

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by davisac1 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:42 pm

Oh dear! Well, it works for me....

The title of the post is "Why Do You People Still Need All that Black Stuff?" and the sum-it-up paragraph goes like this:

As for the need for such things, I look to institutions such as the “black church”. It was a miracle that it came about in the first place and it still serves a vital function in the black community. Would I like to see a post-racial church? Absolutely. Just as I recognize that it will take continued serious work and conversations to make it happen. Until then, you can’t keep complaining that all the black kids sit with each other in the cafeteria. Sometimes, we just need to.

Just swap out the race terms for gender terms and it fits pretty well.

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Shiney on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:49 pm

I read that and it was pretty spot on.

I subscribe to the Nate Southard line of thinking..."Just hate everyone"...

...it's easier if folks just think you're a prick.

But really as people, it's what we do. We seek lines that divide and then cry about the seperation. We want to be included and when we are we strive for individuality.

Why? Because we were never meant to progress beyond the hairless apes we are....we're a fluke.


Last edited by Shiney on Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: X-only Markets

Post by Mercedes on Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:09 pm

I think there's a lot of progression. It's painfully slow, yes. I show up to meetings, classes, group functions, whatever and I'm often the only woman, sure. But 50 years ago no woman would be able to show up at all.

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Re: X-only Markets

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